Amillennialism and Gentile Arrogance
We live in the midst of a revival of replacement theology. A growing gaggle of Gentile commentators call national Israel long dead and buried, but I am happy to announce that reports of her death are greatly exaggerated. God still plans for Israel, even while we speak. Among other human authors, that’s what the Apostle Paul tells us, and especially in Romans 11. He also explains these types of accusations—Gentile arrogance or conceit—when he writes (vv. 23-26):
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Paul warned Gentile believers about becoming proud because unbelieving Israel was cut off from blessing so that the blessing might be offered to Gentiles—if God wouldn’t spare the natural branches, Israel, then He surely wouldn’t spare the wild ones, the ones contrary to nature, the Gentiles (churches) [v. 24]. And then he says explicitly in v. 25 that he gave this warning so that the Gentiles would not “be wise in [their] own conceits.” God gave this to Paul because he knew that then and in the future the Gentiles could get all full of themselves over their part in God’s plan for them and then show that toward the Jews. Taken to its end, the Gentiles could completely dismiss the Jews at all as having a part in God’s plan. No, the Gentiles were just grafted in; that’s all. They weren’t even the natural plant. God was still going to work through the nation Israel.
Everyone should look at v. 26, because Paul says that “all Israel shall be saved.” He doesn’t say that a “remnant” shall be saved. “All Israel” should be taken as “all Israel”—the entire nation. In this context, why would Gentiles see “all Israel” as only a redeemed remnant that is sucked up by “the church”? Answer: Gentile arrogance and conceit.
Gentile Christians at their worst could tend toward hatred of Jews spurred by an arrogance about their view of Gentiles in God’s plan. Instead of seeing themselves as grafted branches, they think they’re natural. And then Israel isn’t even a graft, let alone the main original stalk. Unrestrained by the Holy Spirit through conversion, a perversion of Christianity, Roman Catholicism, took on anti-semitic practices all over the world.
Augustine, one of Christianity’s most influential leaders, likened the Jewish people to Cain, who had murdered his own brother and thus became the first murderer in history. He wrote that Jews were a “wicked sect” who should be subjected to permanent exile because of their evil ways. He wrote in his Confessions (12.14):
How hateful to me are the enemies of your Scripture! How I wish that you would slay them (the Jews) with your two-edged sword, so that there should be none to oppose your word! Gladly would I have them die to themselves and live to you!
Roman Catholicism officially made these decrees:
- Trulanic Synod (692)_prohibited Christians from being treated by Jewish doctors.
- Synod of Narbonne (1050)_prohibited Christians from living in Jewish homes.
- Synod of Gerona (1078)_required Jews to pay taxes to support the Church.
- Third Lateran Council (1179)_prohibited certain medical care to be provided by Christians to Jews.
- Fourth Lateran Council (1215)_required Jews to wear special clothing to distinguish them from Christians.
- Council of Basel (1431-1443)_forbade Jews to attend universities, them from acting as agents in the conclusion of contracts between Christians, and required that they attend church sermons.
The anti-semitic legacy passed from Roman Catholicism to reformers of the Protestant Reformation. Martin Luther wrote:
First their synagogues . . . should be set on fire, and whatever does not burn up should be covered or spread over with dirt so that no one may ever be able to see a cinder or stone of it. And this ought to be done for the honor of God and of Christianity in order that God may see that we are Christians . . . . Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed… For, as has been said, God’s rage is so great against them that they only become worse and worse through mild mercy, and not much better through severe mercy. Therefore away with them . . . . To sum up, dear princes and nobles who have Jews in your domains, if this advice of mine does not suit you, then find a better one so that you and we may be free of this insufferable devilish burden — the Jews.
We can find a similar attitude as Luther by John Calvin, surely influenced by his replacement theology or Gentile arrogance. Barry Horner has written about this in his book, Future Israel. Being gracious, I believe, Horner says that there is a strong anti-Judaism in Reformed Theology saying Israel had lost its election, lost the right to all its covenants and promises. He further writes:
The wrong perception of Israel and the Jews by so-called Christians has produced consequences of horrific proportions during the history of the church. Such a shameful legacy perpetrated during the illustrious Reformation and onwards remains undiminished, largely unconfessed and still prevalent in substantial degrees up to the present within a Calvinistic Reformed and Sovereign Grace environment.
A lot of support exists for Israel from “evangelical Christianity” in the United States, but the recent increase of reformed theology and then amillennialism has resulted in a decreased support from professing evangelicals. When Israel hears of replacement, it all sounds eerily familiar, hearkening back to centuries of persecution from “Christians.” It is no wonder then that Israel’s and American Jew’s attitudes toward Christianity becomes more hostile.
With Divinely empowered prescience, the Apostle Paul warned of Gentile conceit. My own opinion is that amillennialism was conceived from this very arrogance. Instead of merely shelving Israel as Scripture reveals, the Roman Catholics and then Protestant Reformed replace her with “the church.” The great privilege that God has given us as Gentile believers doesn’t nullify the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants (or however else young Calvinists want to explain it). The destiny of Israel will be reversed. Her return to the Lord not only is possible but certain. All Israel will be saved. Gentile Christians should embrace God’s promises—if God could nullify His promises to the natural tree, then He certainly could for the grafted branches too.
Last 5 posts by Kent Brandenburg
- Yes to McCain Is No to Obama - October 8th, 2008
- The Obama Vote - October 1st, 2008
- How Did Jesus Evangelize? part two - September 23rd, 2008
- How Did Jesus Evangelize? part one - September 17th, 2008
- Reducing Ourselves to Scriptural Evangelism - September 10th, 2008
This is not an impressive post, Mr. Brandenburg. You are capable of better. The ‘replacement’ in so-called replacement theology is a canard. And the ‘motive’, so-called, of seeing amillenialism as biblical doctrine is Covenant - Federal - Theology itself. There’s a thin line between your definition of ‘biblicism’ and know-nothingism.
July 16th, 2008 at 10:04 pmAmen, Bro. Brandenburg. I have come to this same conclusion over the past several years, primarily because of Romans 11. Given that this book was written to the Romans (Gentiles), the 2nd (thou, ye) and 3rd (they, these, their) person pronouns make it impossible to mean anything else!
Great post. For more “Christian”, anti-Jewish attrocities visit this site:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_pers1.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_pers3.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_pers2.htm
While I don’t advocate the world view of this web site’s authors, they have compiled an impressive list of related material. They conclude that while the Nazis were not carrying out the dictates of the Catholic Church, the holocaust would also not have been possible without centuries of inbred, Catholic-encouraged, antisemitism.
You can see that the Catholic Church, national and local governments, and even angry mobs of “Christians” went a long way to carrying out the words of Augustine, Luther and Calvin.
Amen to supporting the Jews. It has been a point of national pride with me that the United States remains the single national defender of Israel, sticking their finger in the eye of the rest of the world. I think God is using America to preserve National Israel until the appointed time.
July 17th, 2008 at 10:05 amMy problem is that there is no distinction made between the nation Israel and the religion of Judaism. In Paul, Israel is not a modern state. Also, in Paul’s day only Judea really existed… the 10 northern tribes had been scattered among the Gentiles. In Paul’s understanding, God brings in Israel in 2 ways: 1) fulfillment of the promise to gather all Israel [which has to include Gentiles since they are spread among us] and 2) the conversion of the Jews to the Christian Faith. That is not to nullify Judaism as a religion at all. After all, Christianity is a Jewish “sect”. Christianity is the fulfillment of the promises to Israel/Jews, therefore, there is no replacement but a fulfillment. I think Vatican II and other encyclicals have made this point abundantly clear. I don’t think you have done your homework on the modern day understanding of Isreal-Judasim in the Catholic context. Apologies have been made for the Church’s persecution of the Jews.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:25 am“Replacement” might indeed be a canard, but exaggerated supersessionism IS a characteristic of Reformed and Lutheran Theology.
I think a distinction should be made between anti-Semitism and anti-Judaism. Whereas the latter generally describes a legitimate phenomenon in historic Christianity, the former is a form of racial prejudice most notable in Nazism.
As for the history of anti-Judaism in Catholicism, medieval Christians (that would include the Reformation) universally held all Jews accountable for the crucifixion of Jesus. This phenomenon (known as the charge of “Christ killers”) was explicitly refuted by the Second Vatican Council. On a theological level, the Jews and the continued existence of the Synagogue was for medieval Christians a threat - since every Christian at one time or another has asked himself why would the people of God reject the messiah, one of their own, if his claims were true? - unless there was and still is something wrong with them!
John Paul II was the first pope in history to enter the Synagogue in Rome - symbolically the center of European (Ashkenazi) Jewry. It was only the Holocaust that made this remarkable occurrence possible. On the other hand, the Jewish community was allowed to exist in medieval Christian Europe - a privilege not accorded to other religions (note in particular the crusades against Islam and Albigensianism - and eventually the inter-confessional wars of religion). There was always a sense of some significance to the Jews in the Christian era; but they were still regarded as rejected by God and holding on to a no longer valid covenant relationship. Even at the time of the Second Vatican Council, H. Danielou – a progressive theologian in his own right - remarked that the Jews were just another people with no special standing from Christian perspective (the Council would say otherwise). And yet, there they were - and are - keeping as best they can the covenant God made with Abraham and with Israel at Sinai. It is one thing to condemn paganism. It is another to condemn what Jews and Christians agree are the ordinances of God given to the fathers.
Without the interpretation of Paul’s letters, which, especially since the Reformation, view Judaism and Christianity as separate religions rooted in antithetical principles (law vs. grace), can we continue to justify Christian anti-Judaism? Is it a forgone conclusion that the old covenant is invalid ever since the death and resurrection of Jesus? Current Catholic thought on the subject tends to look at Judaism in terms of a valid covenant that nonetheless has its fulfillment in Jesus Christ. Whether that means that Jews should be persuaded to unite their Jewishness with faith in Jesus or whether Christians should avoid actively evangelizing Jews on the basis of Paul’s prophecy regarding the end times conversion of the Jews is a matter of debate – although most Catholic theologians would favor the latter… if they were at all persuaded by one of these two options.
I have a theologian colleague who is very dissatisfied with the eschatological explanation of the old covenant (option number two) given by Cardinal Kasper in response to the criticism of the recent revision of the Prayer for the Jews for the Good Friday service in the moto proprio Latin liturgy. He thinks that the theological significance of the Jewish Christian relationship is in origins not in ends. I’m not prepared to go that far. I think there is much fruit for reflection and speculation in the idea that the old covenant not only looked forward to the paschal mystery – which we must believe as orthodox Christians – but that it looked forward to an eschatological future as well. Thus if both Christianity and Judaism have a hope for the ultimate future bound up with the Kingdom of God and the Messiah, then differing interpretations of the meaning of these things can be kept in creative tension.
July 17th, 2008 at 12:37 pmI’m back.
It’s hard to answer your comment, CT. I’m presently in Isaiah 60 on Sunday mornings at our church and have preached about 140 messages from there. I’ve preached through Deuteronomy. I’m just into Luke 3 on Wednesday nights. Scripture taken grammatically/historically debunks amillennialism. If it isn’t in Scripture, where did it come from—I see Platonism, the allegorical approach to Scripture seen in Origen. If you’re ammillennial, I’ll say that for sure I wasn’t targeting you with the post. I’m just calling it as I see t.
Here is an article (click on link) that deals with replacement theology. Everything I’ve read about it says that I’m hitting it bullseye here. Paul’s description of Gentile reaction to being grafted in Rom 11 also hits the amillennialism. I don’t at all understand the “canard” charge or “know-nothingism.” It doesn’t help your cause, CT.
Thanks Jason.
Hello Doug and Hello Thomas.
Thomas, are you the Thomas of SharperIron?
I have a few questions on this. When I preached through Romans, it was very obvious to me that the interpretation of chapter 11 has to be exactly what you have said here. It certainly is not amillenial.
Where I struggle is with the statement of Paul in Galatians 6:16 — “the Israel of God.” Paul makes it very clear that “they are not all Israel which are of Israel.” We find this in passages like Romans 2:28-29; 9:6, etc.
So, Paul clearly believes in a spiritual Israel. Would you say then that what Paul is saying is that the church is grafted into the nation of Israel, and not the other way around? And is this what he means when he says that all Israel shall be saved?
And if so, since the bride of Christ is the holy city of Jerusalem, would we say that the bride is Israel and not the church? Or, maybe better, Israel that includes the church?
July 17th, 2008 at 7:02 pmHi Dave. I’ve preached through Revelation three times and at the end I see every saved person as Jehovah’s wife or Christ’s bride and entering into the kingdom. What we are talking about is the kingdom of God, which is a soteriological entity. Those who enter the kingdom by faith spiritually will enter the kingdom physically. Gentiles are the children of Abraham by faith. On the other hand, not all of Israel is the Israel of God; only saved Jews. I hope that answers. My main point here is to show that all the promises God made to Israel will still be fulfilled in the nation Israel and then those who are grafted on by faith. I see the church as a smaller part of the kingdom of God, separate from Israel.
Doug,
I never really answered your comment. A literal view of Scripture sees Israel as put on hold, on the shelf, to wait for some future new time. This framework of prophecy is seen in Daniel 9:24-27. Do you remember in Luke 2:36 we see Anna is of the tribe of Asher? That was one of the ten tribes northern tribes. They still knew what tribe they were in, but more importantly God knows what tribe they are from, because in Revelation we see that God will save at least 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel (Revelation 7).
And the church couldn’t be a fulfillment of the Abrahamic and Davidic promises. Those were very specific, not yet fulfilled, and to the Jews. Simeon and Anna and Zacharias in Luke 1-2 was still looking for them. And Jesus intimated clearly in Acts 1:6-7 that those promises to Israel would still be fulfilled.
Doug, perhaps you are Roman Catholic and the pope has apologized for killing Jews. I’m looking at the reason for the killing of Jews as being out of Gentile arrogance as showing up in RC and in the Protestants, especially state churches. More importantly for you would be to consider the Scriptural truth of salvation by grace alone through faith alone (Romans 3:28; Romans 4:1-6; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8-9).
This post really peaked my interest. I am not very versed in eschatology. So, thank you for the boost.
As for Israel being saved, can it mean all Israel at the time? Or, using the same verse Dave mentioned, all true Israel?
July 17th, 2008 at 8:44 pm>After all, Christianity is a Jewish “sect”.
Fundamentally you guys have either a problem with, or lack of understanding of, Covenant - Federal - Theology. To say that Christianity is a “Jewish sect” you have to have a very shallow understanding of the Bible and the unity of the Old and New Testaments. What you claim as your chief glory - your definition of biblicism - is where you are falling most short.
July 17th, 2008 at 8:49 pmIncidentally, is there anyone out there besides myself who sees through Barak Obama’s pseudo-Christianity, to reveal this same theology that Rome used to justify persecution? Isn’t amillenialism part of black liberation theology, and aren’t they willing to use all types of religious doctrines to try to control and manipulate the masses into working for them to bring in their kingdom? His ex-pastor is an avowed black liberation theologian, and Obama heard that for years.
July 17th, 2008 at 9:03 pmCT, you have a very shallow understanding of the differences between Old and New Testaments. This criticism works both ways. Instead, of criticizing, give some strong scriptural support, if you can, for what your saying, instead of making generalizations. As for covenant theology, you hit the nail on the head. I think most of us here DO have a problem with it, and think that it is not biblical.
July 17th, 2008 at 9:08 pmIt’s OK to have a problem with Covenant Theology, but you really need to understand something before you criticize it. And, it’s rather difficult to answer any of you specifically because you seem to silently load all sorts of malevolent things into the term Amillennialism. Amillennialism isn’t even a term that existed during the Reformation, but came about to distinguish historic Reformed views from 19th century views such as Dispensationalism. And Rome’s dark army the Jesuits specifically came up with a new fangled theory called Preterism to get the heat off their anti-Christ church and Pope that historic amillennialists put on them, so
July 17th, 2008 at 9:32 pmRome and modern day amillennialists are hardly on the same page.
That may well be true of the term “amillenialism.” But it is far from true of a literal interpretation of the thousand year reign of Christ.
July 18th, 2008 at 5:08 amKent,
No, I’m not that Thomas.
As for your remark to Doug about what should be more important for him (i.e., the alleged “Scriptural truth of salvation by grace alone through faith alone”), not only is it unfortunate that you have to engage in denominational polemics when the topic of conversation is something else, but you are yourself in a problematic position with respect to covenant theology (aka ct). Justification by faith alone is a Reformation doctrine. It is the Reformation theology of the law of the Old Covenant that is mostly responsible for the misrepresentation of the theology of historic Judaism (both Biblical and Rabbinic). We learn from the Reformers and their successors that Judaism is a legalistic religion. This helps illuminate the freedom and mercy of the religion of the Gospel. Thus the law-gospel dichotomy of Reformation Theology needs to caricature and disparage Judaism in this way. So on the one hand, you want fair treatment for the Jews, but on the other hand, you subscribe to a soteriology rooted in the very theology that maligns the Jewish theological tradition.
In other words, if Jews as Jews have some legitimate claim to make regarding their knowledge and love of God – and his love for them, then they cannot be the legalistic villains that sola gratia theology makes them out to be. And without their villainy, what becomes of the popular perception of the parallel between Paul’s struggle against the “proto-pelagianism” of first century Judaism and Luther’s struggle against the pelagianism of late medieval Roman Catholicism?
If you seek to advocate for the Jews, know that you are endangering the doctrines of grace taught by the Reformation, as these take for granted a misinterpretation of the Jewish theology of Torah.
July 18th, 2008 at 8:48 amKent,
As far as the 10 tribes go, I am not saying that there were not any of them around, what I am saying is that it is Biblical and historical fact that the 10 tribes were dispersed long before the time of Christ. Their ethnic identity was mixed with whatever Gentile group “absorbed” them and the very reason they were dispersed is because they were not faithful to Judaism. My point is that is God is to gather ethnic Israel (which Israel is 10 tribes not 2) then he must save the Gentiles that mixed with them.
Again, the problem is a confusion of terms. Is Israel a nation in Scripture or a people? There is a difference. Secondly, the nation of Israel today at best could only be made up of the 2 tribes of Judea ethnically. Most are European Jews. If you do believe that God has made promises to a nation named Israel that was re-organized by the Allies after WWII, then I would like to see that in Scripture AND Church history. I do not believe it can be proven. Lastly on this point, for there to be a true Biblical nation of Israel it must include all 12 tribes and there in lies the problem, because now we are talking about ethnicity and not just the practice of the Jewish faith.
I think Scripture teaches that the Jews and all of Israel have a special place in the Church. If you understand what I have said above, there is no doubt that the 10 tribes are already apart of the Church. Now we wait for the fulfillment of the covenant by all of Israel, all 12 tribes coming together as one with the Gentiles in the Church.
It is a shame that you have to resort to Reformed polemics. What makes you think that I was not a Reformed believer myself at one point?
ct - For you to say that Christianity was not a Jewish sect is to ignore history. What was Christianity born from in not Judaism? What was it considered by the Jews of the day? By the Romans? A Jewish sect. In the eyes of the Jews and Romans, Christianity was no different than the other sects of the day. There were most diffenently sects who looked for a claimed and physical messiah. Come out side of your Calvinism and be objective.
Last point, Thomas hits the nail on the head. The very point you are raising concerning Judaism is born out of the Reformational distinction of Justification, Law-Gospel, and Covenant theology. Ask Meredith Kline… he’ll tell you the same.
July 18th, 2008 at 9:14 amIsn’t this point of “assimilated Israel” refuted by the fact that the Jews of the world clearly did NOT assimilate to the point that after 2 millennium they did not lose their Jewish religion, stories, physical appearance and names despite being separated from each other for 2000 years?
If you want proof, then isn’t the existence of National Israel proof enough? And, not to get to greasy here, but did you know that genetic paternity tests have been devised that can go back far enough to re-establish the tribal lineage of any one person (or an entire nation)? It is not outside of the realm of possibility to re-establish the 12 tribes with precision.
Contrarily, my ancestors came to America 200 years ago and we’ve lost all of our national identities, we’ve intermarried, we’ve shed the religion of our ancestors and have even morphed our family names over the generations. Simply put, we’ve forgotten who we were! They never did.
On a separate point, God designed the temple to have a court of gentiles that was outside of the court of the Jews. The temple layout didn’t emphasize containment, but proximity to the symbols of God. As God knows human nature and that exclusion without humility breeds jealousy and contempt, He still commanded an OUTER court of gentiles to be constructed. In other words, the mentality that Bro. Brandenburg is suggesting exists with God, demonstratively existed for all the years that the temple stood!
God knew the Gentiles could become jealous by only being granted the outer court. God knew that the Jews would be jealous when God was found of them who did not seek Him. But we are not to boast. They are the natural root/branch and can be grafted in again. Insisting that we, the Gentile church are the natural branch IS boasting against the branch. It’s not an idle claim with no true significance. It’s not semantics only. Isn’t this exactly what is cautioned against in Romans 11?
July 18th, 2008 at 11:21 am>ct - For you to say that Christianity was not a Jewish sect is to ignore history.
Not the history of redemption from eternity. Secular historians may see what they want to see, or can see. The Word of God lets us know that Old Testament saints were saved by faith in the coming Messiah (Jesus Christ) just as New Testament era saints are saved by faith in the already come Messiah.
July 18th, 2008 at 11:30 amFirst CT, Thanks for coming over here to comment. I don’t know if you see it or not, but saying that this is malevolent is malevolent. It doesn’t aid your cause. I refer to Scripture to make a point and it would be better to answer where I have wandered from God’s Word on this. I think this is a serious Scriptural issue. Can we trust the promises of God? If we Gentiles can’t trust the promises God made to the Jews, then how would we expect Him to fulfill promises to us?
I’m looking at Romans 11—that’s where this all started. I see a very serious warning in the text of Scripture about Gentile arrogance or conceit. In those Words, God in essence says that replacement theology comes out of the conceit of Gentiles. To take what clearly says that God is not done with all Israel, the nation Israel, and yet say God is done with Israel, comes from arrogance. Amillennialism takes this position—that God is done with the nation Israel. The Amill position may be bigger and not overlap exactly with the idea of replacement theology or supersessionism, but it obliterates Israel.
When I go into historical theology to look for this view, I see it, as do many, many others, start at least with Origen and Augustine, among others, but those are major names, and they represent RC theology, not Biblical theology. Then I see major Reformers echoing what I see in Augustine. They have a different soteriology than RC, I grant that, but they keep the spiritualizing, allegorizing of so many texts of Scripture.
Thomas,
I don’t see Scriptural teaching on salvation as denominational polemics. Without justification, we have no indwelling Holy Spirit and, therefore, no illumination of Scripture. We will be blinded in our understanding of prophetic texts.
Jesus rejected Judaism. Paul rejected Judaism. They didn’t reject Israel. That’s what we’re talking about here—a grammatical historical interpretation of the myriad of prophetic texts. God will save the nation Israel. A rejection of Judaism is not a rejection of Israel. The RC and Reformation rejection of Israel comes from their replacement theology, not from their soteriology. I can reject the legalism of a Jew and still believe that God will fulfill His promises to the Jews.
If you believe in the doctrine of election, then you know that God knows what will occur even before the foundation of the world. He says that the Jewish nation will be saved. Do you believe that? God still has a plan for Israel. How can I trust my own election if I can’t trust God’s election of Israel?
So, my soteriology doesn’t undermine my belief about Israel, but strengthens it.
Doug,
I really didn’t think I resorted to Reformed polemics. For one, I’m not reformed. I’m a historic Baptist. I believe that the things of the Spirit of God are spiritually discerned, and the natural man doesn’t understand them. If someone does not trust Christ alone by grace alone for salvation, then he is a natural man without the Spirit’s illumination of Scripture.
I believe in the dispersion of Israel. That is prophesied all over the OT, but so is the regathering of Israel (Ezekiel 20:34-35; 36:22-24, 28, 34-35; Isaiah 11:11-16; Zechariah 10:9-10 1). God has promised Israel a future (1 Samuel 12:22; Psalm 89:31-37; Psalm 94:14; Romans 11:1; Romans 11:26-27; Luke 21:24).
And then we see in Revelation 7, 12,000 from each tribe of Israel. You want me to show you something historically? One date: 1948. You say that isn’t the same nation as the OT nation Israel. God has miraculously brought people back to the land. It doesn’t matter to me if a Jew himself doesn’t know what tribe he’s from. God, Who knows the number of the hairs on each head, knows what tribe each Jew is from. So what do you think is happening in Israel right now, Doug?
I suppose I’m one of the “young Calvinists” who is in error re: my embrace of amillennialism. I just concluded a series on “understanding the land promise” over at my blog.
Amillennialism is not some black liberationist conspiracy theory. As some have mentioned here, it is a name for the Reformed understanding of eschatology. Historically, the pre-trib rapture version of dispensationalism was birthed in the 19th century. The Reformed understanding was birthed in the 17th. Both of them I’m sure have tie-ins to historic teachings of different groups of Christians in days previous to when these eschataological positions were carefully expressed.
There is a basis for Amillennialism in Scripture, even one that is faithful to grammatical / historical interpretation. Rather than using Daniel 9 as the interpretive grid for all of prophecy in the entire Bible, we look at the New Testament as our guide. Rather than taking the single mention of a literal 1000 year kingdom (actually a few mentions but all within about 5-6 verses in Rev. 20) in a book that is full of symbolic language and numbers as our primary guide, amillennialists look at the entire teaching of the kingdom in the New Testament and conclude that Rev. 20 is symbolically referring to Christ’s reign now.
Regarding Romans 11, there is room even in amillennialism for holding to a late mass conversion of Jewish people to the Christian faith, prior to Christ’s return and the destruction of this present world (and the creation of the new earth and new heaven). I don’t see how aiming to hold the views of Scripture with regard to the nature of the Church and its relation to the rejected nation of Israel, is a direct application of the warning about being prideful. No one, Jew or Gentile, has any hope apart from Christ. And we all do well to be humble as we remember Christ didn’t have to save us at all.
In Rom. 11 there is 1 tree. Some branches were broken out, others were grafted in. It’s still one tree. The broken off (cast aside, rejected) branches (national Israel) can be grafted back into the one tree. But assuming we don’t get cast aside (which would only happen if we prove to have no saving faith), we would still be in the one tree, and would be united with the newly restored branches. If that one tree is to get a 1000 year kingdom, surely we would receive it as well.
Can anyone read Eph. 2:10-22, and not see how clearly and unequivocally Scripture affirms that the Church has been made to be members of the commonwealth of Israel? We are fellow-citizens with believing Jews of old. There it seems that God takes of both (Jew and Gentile) and makes a new entity. One new man. Now that the Gentiles are in the tree too, it takes on new dimensions.
In light of Hebrews declaration about the eternal sufficiency of Christ’s one offering, how can we go back to a millennium in which animal sacrifices are performed in a physical temple? I know not every dispensationalist holds to this view, but many do.
The Temple of old not only had an outer court for Gentiles, but a court for women, and even a veil separating the Holiest place from all the people. Yet in the Gospel there is neither male nor female, neither Jew nor Gentile, neither bond nor free. All are one and all are Christ’s. And that veil was ripped in two. In fact on this side of the cross, the NT describes God’s people, the church, in terms of a spiritual building, a temple made of living stones. And in the eternal state, there will be no temple.
In Acts 15, James interprets Amos 9’s declaration about the rebuilding of the house of David as referring to the inclusion of the Gentiles into the church.
In 1 Thess. 1, the church is waiting for relief from tribulation that is to come, not at a secret return of Christ, but immediately upon Christ’s visible return, when he eternally destroys the enemies in hell. In one event, Christ brings rest to his people, and judgment on the enemies. Throughout the NT there is a clear expectation of a single parousia. A single appearing of Christ. And also a single judgment of the dead. (John 5, Rom. 2).
1 Cor. 15:51-53 refer to the “last trumpet” but a pre-trib rapture view sees another, later trumpet, mentioned in Matt. 24:31 at Christ’s visible return. It seems much simpler, and more natural, to see Matt. 24:31, 1 Thess. 4:16, and 1 Cor. 15:52 as all referring to the same event, anounced with the “last trumpet”.
These and other considerations move me toward amillennialism and covenant theology. They move me away from pre-tribulationism and dispensationalism.
I know this isn’t meant to be a debate forum for everything about these issues, but I just wanted to explain that there are Biblical considerations which cause people who aim to follow the Bible to adopt one of these views. Perhaps with further study, I’ll be convinced of historic premillennialism as better answering all the questions and harmonizing with all of Scripture. But presently I see amillennialism as doing this the best.
In Christ,
Bob Hayton
July 18th, 2008 at 12:26 pmBob,
You poo-poo Don’s mention of liberation theology and amillennialism, but they are related, which is all he said. To start off by making us say that amillennialism is black liberation theology doesn’t do anything for your defense of amillennialism. It is a rhetorical technique that has no merit. Why do you think that there is anti-Jewish sentiments in so-called “black theology” and the embracing of anti-semitics like Louis Farrakhan? How could that fit into a Christian system? It really goes right along with their allegorical approach to prophecy and their spiritualizing of God’s promises to Israel. And so we have black Gentile conceit that results in hatred of the Jewish people—this isn’t anything different than what I read of Augustine and Martin Luther. For you to dismiss it shows a certain amount of conceit as well. You may think that “conceit” is a mean word, but I’m taking it from Romans 11.
You give the typical attack on dispensationalism that it popped up in the 19th century. Wrong. Paul used the word in Ephesians 3 and we are not working our way through a system, but rather interpreting scripture on its own merit. What it boils down to in dispensational theology is that we believe that when God says something He means it, and He means exactly what He said. For instance, a covenant theologian will preach Isaiah 9 and when it says that “the government shall be upon his shoulders” is something like “the government of your life is on the shoulders of Christ,” when it has nothing to do with that. It’s talking about the government of the world by Jesus Christ during His kingdom on this earth.
Regarding the millennial kingdom sacrifices, why would there be any sacrificial system at all ever if they didn’t matter? They did matter. Why do we take the Lord’s Table? The answer to that question is why there will be a sacrificial system in the millennial kingdom (Ezekiel 40-48). It will be a means to worship the Lord.
James quoted Amos 9 n Acts 15 to show that the Gentiles being saved was not contrary to God’s plan for Israel. Gentiles didn’t need to become Jewish proselytes in order to become Jews in the kingdom.
Regarding a “single coming” of Christ, that is debunked several places, but what comes immediately to mind is when Jesus talks about the rapture in John 14 and this was something that the disciples didn’t understand. They understood a single return straight to earth but not the receiving unto Himself that He describes there.
Anyway, you’re right Bob, this would take a lot of time to give the full, indepth debunking of covenant theology and amillennialism. I think my Isaiah 9 example above gives the gist of it, however. There aren’t two approaches to Scripture. There is only one. Just like there is only one way to God, there is only one way to understand what God said. Covenant theology doesn’t take huge portions of Scripture literally, which leaves the Bible to a gigantic amount of subjectivity of men.
Kent,
I have to draw your attention to the fact that all of the current research into the cultural historical context of the Gospels and the Pauline Letters completely contradicts this statement: “Jesus rejected Judaism. Paul rejected Judaism.”
You are one with the Reformed caricature of the religion of the Jews. Do you not know that Reformation soteriology is directly responsible for even your description of Jewish theology as legalistic (which it is in fact not)? IF you are right about the rejection of Israel in Reformed thought, then the reason for that rejection is actually Reformation soteriology – with which you apparently agree (thus my point about your difficult position). Basically, the covenant theology worked out initially by the second generation of Reformers, starting with Bucer and Calvin, postulated that the covenant of works, which God made with Adam, and which cannot save, includes every soul – Jew or Gentile – who does not have saving faith in Christ crucified (whether that faith is anticipatory in the OT saints or actual in the Church). This means that living Jews, in so far as they are not Christian, are not and cannot be redeemed. To further this point, the legalism of Judaism – as you put it – conforms perfectly to the covenant of works (again, a non-redemptive covenant). Justification by grace through faith “alone” is the modus operandi of the covenant of grace (i.e., the subjective or applied side of the covenant of redemption in which Christ fulfills the covenant of works – according to certain interpretations of covenant theology). Thus, soteriology is clearly the principle behind Reformed supersessionism. I think if you are going to be consistent you may have to reject Reformation supersessionism and soteriology in one stroke.
You seem to be saying that even though the Jewish community with respect to its religious life is false (i.e., legalistic), none the less God will keep his promises to them as to some other kind of entity.
So, the underlying question is: What makes a Jew? Or a Jewish people?
Nationality? Not prior to May, 14 1948. Race? Jews come in all colors. Covenant? That would get my vote, but from your comments it appears that – just like your Reformed Amillenial counterparts – you completely reject the Jewish religion.
Don’t misunderstand me. I am not a supersessionist. I believe that “the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.” (Rom 11:29) I just think that you cannot do justice to the place of the Jews within in the plan of salvation without taking very seriously the question of their own covenant keeping and the status of the covenant they allege to keep. This requires that we first reject useless and unjust caricatures like “legalism” to describe their religious life. The problem I see in the position you take as a pro-Israel Evangelical is that Evangelical soteriology, being as it is quasi-Reformational, depends in large part on these false characterizations and hostility toward the religion of the Jews.
I think it is also arrogant of you to take it upon yourself as a non-Jew to place Israel within a Christian scheme of salvation, while at the same time denigrating their spiritual lives.
July 18th, 2008 at 1:59 pmKent, those same black people consider ancient Greeks to have been black Africans, and all their cultural attainments to have been the cultural attainments of black Africans. They also say that it was black Africans who went into Europe and ‘taught’ Europeans everything they knew which turned into the culture that dominated the world.
These are not Christians. They are people with worldly resentments and ethnic/racial pride. Hence their ability to straddle black liberation theology and Nation of Islam ideology.
July 18th, 2008 at 2:07 pm>Regarding the millennial kingdom sacrifices, why would there be any sacrificial system at all ever if they didn’t matter? They did matter.
They were types the anti-type of which was the Lamb of God - Jesus Christ - sacrificed on the cross. “It is done.”
The ceremonial laws turned the Old Testament saints towards the coming Messiah. Their faith in the coming Messiah was saving faith for them.
I actually sense you have not given doctrine the effort you need to give it. Understanding of the Bible is seeing the parts in relation to the whole. Covenant - Federal - Theology gives you the whole of Scripture. The whole counsel of God.
July 18th, 2008 at 2:26 pmWhen learning biblical doctrine it is very difficult to avoid names such as Witsius or a Brakel or Boston (I won’t mention first and second generation reformers because you might think I’m implying you havn’t read those famous names). In the 20th century: Vos, Berkhof, Kline. If you’re baptist and can’t get into the writings of infant baptists then try Bunyan, Gill, Spurgeon, Pink. (Pink as covenant theology.)
July 18th, 2008 at 2:31 pmThomas,
It is highly likely that I am not attuned to the recent writings that you mention in your first paragraph. I don’t think the meaning of Scripture has changed since they came out.
I can also see that you and me are talking past each other here. When I say that Jesus rejected Judaism, I DO NOT mean that Jesus rejected the Old Testament. He rejected Israel’s false religion of the time in which they took the OT and perverted it, as Jesus pointed out in several instances, including the Sermon on the Mount (Mt 5-7). I say legalistic as a term in accord with what I see Paul say in Galatians regarding the Judaizers, who had a false gospel.
I don’t know how that reformed theology could be responsible for my view of the Jews, when I’m not reformed. I thought it came from Scripture, since that is what I studied to get it.
Faith has always been the basis of salvation for a Jew or a Gentile (Rom 4). Abraham believed. David believed. Paul believed. Except a man be born again, He cannot see the kingdom of God. Israel did not believe and since she didn’t receive Christ (as Isaiah 52-59 show), God uses the church as His institution until the times of the Gentiles would be fulfilled.
Regarding Jewish covenant keeping, the nation Israel hasn’t done that, true, but they will, we know. So I’m not separating the two.
What makes a Jew? You have to be one of the twelve tribes of Israel.
And last, this isn’t a Christian scheme of salvation. It is the only salvation (Acts 4:12).
CT,
Liberation theologians are more than black. It is huge in South America and mainly Roman Catholic. I’m sure there is more to the hatred of Jews than just an eschatological system, but it buttresses that hatred.
The sacrificial system was a type of Christ. I haven’t denied that, but the system was more than a type. It was part of the worship of OT Israel that in part kept each worshiper in good standing as a member of the nation Israel.
Since Scripture is sufficient and the covenants of which you refer—works, grace, redemption—are not in the Bible, then they can’t be necessary for a proper understanding of God’s Word. If we needed those covenants to understand Scripture, God would have mentioned them in Scripture. I get the whole counsel of God by reading the whole Bible and studying whole books in their context. I’ve either taught or preached through the whole Bible. I have preached in great detail through—Gen, Deut, Josh, Judges, Ruth, 1 Sam, Neh, Job, Ps, Prov, Eccl, S. Sol, Is (up to 60), Jer, Ez, Dan, Hos-Mal, all of the NT except for certain portions of Luke, which I’m now preaching through.
How could men understand Scripture before Berkhof and Kline? I’ve read Berkhof, Vos, Boston, Owen, Turretin, Pink, Manton, Gill, Bunyan, Gouge, etc., but I study the Bible to get what I believe and practice.
Thanks for trying to help me.
Kent,
You may not know that you are using Reformed polemics, but the formula of grace alone through faith alone is from Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, etc. Aren’t they the leaders of the Reformation? I am not willing, at this point, to enter into a discussion about Justification… there is plenty of books to read on that, I have no intrest in rehashing an old issue and one that is more and more irrelevent (I am not saying the doctrine of justification is irrelevent, simply the polemics of it).
I would agree with you about the dispersion and regathering of Israel. I don’t think that is the issue at hand. What is the issue is who or what is Israel? Was Israel a nation only to God? Was not Israel more than a plot of land and individuals? Wasn’t His promises given to them more than “carnal”? Doesn’t the Jewish faith have something to do with this or is it simply about DNA? Is God’s promise to gather ethinic Israel? Can the faith of Israel, which is Judaism, be seperated from who they are? If Paul rejected Judaism, as you have said, how could He not have rejected Israel itself?
To me, these are the questions. Israel, for Paul and the Scriptures, are mostly intertwined with the faith of Israel. It is obvious from the Old Testament that certain promises came with a requirement of obedience, hence the despersion of the northern kingdom. Paul even asked the rhetorical question, “For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel. (Rom. 9:6).” It is abudantly clear from Paul that descent is not what is in God’s view, but faithfulness. It always has been. The Psalms are clear on this point (Psalm 40:6;50:14; 50:23; 51:16-17).
It is a well-known fact that the 10 tribes were assimilated into the Gentiles ETHNICALLY. Yes, they do have a Jewism bloodline and that is great, however, if they are not faithful to the covenants it is all for nought, according to Paul in Romans.
Herein lies your problem, as Thomas laid out so well for you.
July 18th, 2008 at 2:57 pm>What makes a Jew? You have to be one of the twelve tribes of Israel.
Jews don’t answer this way. It’s more complicated than that (not that even a reference to all twelve tribes isn’t complicated in itself).
Galatians 3:28-9.
“There is neither Jew nor Greek…for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”
“And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
July 18th, 2008 at 3:10 pm>Since Scripture is sufficient and the covenants of which you refer—works, grace, redemption—are not in the Bible, then they can’t be necessary for a proper understanding of God’s Word.
The covenants are are ‘in the Bible’ as the doctrine of the Trinity. How do you understand Jesus’ words all through the Gospels without inferring the covenant of redemption? Maybe you just don’t try to understand Jesus’ words there. In which case Reformed theologians are just more diligent in assaulting heaven, so to speak, regarding our understanding of the *whole counsel of God.*
>If we needed those covenants to understand Scripture, God would have mentioned them in Scripture. I get the whole counsel of God by reading the whole Bible and studying whole books in their context.
Reformed theologians do biblical theology prior to systematic theology. Calvin was one of the most penetrating and insightful biblical theologians in history. In the 20th century it is difficult to not recognize Geerhardus Vos - classical covenant theologian - as the preeminent biblical theologian of our era.
>I’ve either taught or preached through the whole Bible. I have preached in great detail through—Gen, Deut, Josh, Judges, Ruth, 1 Sam, Neh, Job, Ps, Prov, Eccl, S. Sol, Is (up to 60), Jer, Ez, Dan, Hos-Mal, all of the NT except for certain portions of Luke, which I’m now preaching through.
I read you often saying this. Taking your case out of the equation you *do* understand don’t you that person can learn doctrine at the very feet of Jesus and still get it wrong, or not have the ability to understand or see the parts in relation to the whole.
You read the Bible and come out a common dispensationalist. Surprise. We need teachers. The Bible says teaching is one of the gifts of the Spirit. We prove everything by the Word of God though. You are not the only person who values doing this, it should go without saying.
July 18th, 2008 at 3:30 pmI said *we* need teachers. Maybe you don’t, but most of us do. With discernment that comes from the Holy Spirit and with sanctified common-sense we have ability to find the truth in doctrine (and even sense when it is being attacked and all the rest of it).
Dedicated, complete readings of the pure and whole Word of God is the foundation and makes profitable all the other kinds of Bible reading and doctrinal study in its wake. This too should go without saying. The great reformers *began* with reading the Word of God and preaching it complete in their respective cities. Translating it into common languages. Etc.
July 18th, 2008 at 3:34 pmJust to clarify where I fit in here. I’m not with Doug or Thomas. They seem to be coming from the New Pauline Perspective angle. While some of the research that E.P. Sanders, N.T. Wright and others have produced is helpful in understanding 1st century Judaism, it can’t overturn the main thrust of the commonly accepted for thousands of years (yes, even prior to the Reformation) Christian view of justification and the substitutionary atonement. Not all Jews were legalists, and the law is not universally condemned by Paul. While the Pharisees might not have been consciously trying to merit salvation, as they understood themselves to be in a gracious covenant relationship with God, yet still there was some faulty thinking on their part which merited damning statements by Christ. We know they were resting in their bloodlines and they were trying to earn extra favor with God. We also know Scripture directly contradicts any view of trying to earn favor with God. Now Roman Catholics at the time of Luther may not have been exactly parallel to the Pharisees, in every respect. And Luther may have overstated his case somewhat. But the modern overturn of the Reformation Gospel flows from putting too much stock in modern theories and evidences. My pastor John Piper addresses this issue in his recent book: The Future of Justification: A Response to N.T. Wright [available to read online here].
I am agreeing mostly with what CT is saying. Gal. 3, Eph. 2, Rom. 4, 1 Pet. 2 — these passages all clearly teach the unity of the people of God. Ephesians presents the Church as the pinnacle of the wisdom of God. It displays God’s glory. Yet we have to digress from it and go back to the old covenant priestly system in the millennium?!? Go back to bloody sacrifices which never take away sins? Go back to a temple which cuts God’s holiness away from all but the high priest (and even he on only one day a year)? This seems anticlimactic and counter to the progression of redemptive history.
July 18th, 2008 at 3:39 pmDoug,
I agree that faith alone, grace alone rings reformation. I evangelize Catholics every week. We have enough here that when I go door-to-door I run into some every week. They say they believe in Jesus Christ. I found that saying “alone” was necessary and it fit with the book of Galatians and Romans. Adding to faith and grace nullifies both. Hence, I use the word “alone.” I didn’t add it from reading reformers, but out of the practice of explaining the gospel to Catholics.
In the questions of your second paragraph. In the end, national Israel will also be spiritual Israel, but there will be enough spiritual Israel to be national Israel. We know that from Scripture, which I’ve already referenced above. Unbelieving Jews won’t make it into the kingdom, even as no one who is not born again will enter into the kingdom.
Luke 1 and 2 gives us some good evidence that there was a believing remnant of Jews in Jesus’ day—Mary, Joseph, Zacharias, Elizabeth, Simeon, Anna, the shepherds, etc. Judaism and Israel are not the same. None of the verses you referenced disagree with what I am saying. No unbelieving Jews will enter the kingdom. Regarding the assimilation of the 10 tribes into the Gentiles, I read Revelation 7 and I see 12,000 from each tribe who will be saved. I am presuppositional in my apologetics, so what God said is what I believe. Concerning Israel, we see a people, a race, and a land that will also consummate in a belief.
CT,
I don’t think your “covenants” and “Trinity” comparison works. We have the Trinity in the Bible plainly stated, but nowhere do we have “covenant of works,” etc.
Regarding who is a Jew, I didn’t use “seed of Abraham,” even though I believe they are the “seed of Abraham,” because that would not exclude the descendants of Ishmael. Are they Jews? No. “Seed of Abraham” is true, but not specific enough as a definition.
I’ve read Vos’ Biblical Theology of the OT. I’ve also read Berkhof’s History of Christian Doctrine. I read them over 20 years ago. I agree that we need teachers. That would be a long discussion. I believe that the church is the pillar and ground of the truth and in 1 Tim 3:15 that is the local church, so the teaching should be in the context of a church, not looking for whoever we like or who will agree with us. I think people can get it wrong CT, for sure. I believe the setting is of major importance. You should have a group of obedient people that are filled with the Spirit of God. If they are not obedient to God in a church, they are not getting the Spirit’s illumination. The Holy Spirit is quenched or grieved. Are you bold with the gospel, CT? Are you faithfully preaching the gospel to every creature? A genuine Christian would not mind my asking that.
I believe every genuine believer is a dispensationalist, CT. Did things change after sin, after the flood, after Abraham, after Moses, after Jesus died, after Pentecost? We all relate to the truth of Scripture within the changing contexts of dispensations.
Bob,
Why do we need any symbolism–baptism and Lord’s Table–in this NT era if Jesus already came? In these things we have some of a liturgy of worship. God knows exactly why we will offer kingdom sacrifices and I would be careful in looking down upon what God says is His will. I would wonder what your explanation would be for the exact dimensions given for a millennial temple to the very inch. Why that kind of detail for something symbolic?
“He that will DO his will; shall know of the doctrine…” There are definitely way too many theologians and not enough missionaries! I can admire a guy like Casiodoro de Reina, who ran for his life while translating the Bible in twelve years from hebrew and greek into spanish. He also started a spanish speaking church in Oxford. I don’t know if he was amillenial or not. I know that he was an immersionist though and not a pedo-baptizer.
Can you tell we are getting ready for a Bible conference here on the Spanish Bible version issue in August?
July 18th, 2008 at 7:20 pm>I don’t think your “covenants” and “Trinity” comparison works. We have the Trinity in the Bible plainly stated, but nowhere do we have “covenant of works,” etc.
For Scripture warrant for a Covenant of Works I would direct you to any number of sound works, but Berkhof is particularly good. You say you’ve read his slim volume on historical theology, but it’s his Systematic Theology that will give you what you need. Or his Manual of Christian Doctrine. The theological terms Trinity and Covenant of Works is really a very good comparison.
>Regarding who is a Jew, I didn’t use “seed of Abraham,” even though I believe they are the “seed of Abraham,” because that would not exclude the descendants of Ishmael. Are they Jews? No. “Seed of Abraham” is true, but not specific enough as a definition.
I quoted the Galatians passages not because I wanted to imply you had used “Abraham’s seed” as your definition, but for what that Galatians passage is saying in and of itself which denies what you’ve been saying.
>I believe every genuine believer is a dispensationalist, CT. Did things change after sin,
Yes, God announced the Covenant of Grace.
>after the flood,
Not regarding salvation. God said He wouldn’t wipe us out again.
>after Abraham,
Not regarding salvation, no.
>after Moses,
Again, no. We were still under the Covenant of Grace. Jesus would fulfil the law - do what Adam failed to do - and then die on the cross satisfying the justice of God. The could not save after Sinai any more than it could save after Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden. Only in Jesus fulfilling it for us could it - can it - save, which is the Covenant of Grace in time, based on the Covenant of Redemption from eternity.
>after Jesus died,
No, believers are saved by faith before and after Jesus died on the cross.
>after Pentecost?
We have the Spirit for our union with Christ in this era. Old Testament saints had the Spirit in different manifestations, they also had the Angel of the Lord, and Jesus with them in things like a pillar of fire, which we don’t have. This though doesn’t make salvation different for Old Testament saints vs. New Testament saints.
>We all relate to the truth of Scripture within the changing contexts of dispensations.
Yes, Innocence (Adam in the Garden); depravity (after the fall); regeneration; and glorification or eternal misery. But this isn’t ‘Dispensationalism’, is it, Kent?
Reformed Christian had the word dispensation before the 19th century (that golden age of theology) ran with it and made of it a gigantic tiddly winks of a system.
July 18th, 2008 at 8:28 pmI have no problem with the word dispensation. I can admit God does different things at different times. But God wasn’t testing man, wondering what would happen under each new test. He wasn’t trying to prove man would continue to fall and fail each test. That’s speculation and not in the text.
O. Palmer Robertson in his book The Christ of the Covenants gives a good defense of a Scriptural case for a covenant made with Adam. And Jesus’ statements in John about a trinitarian pact are the basis of the idea of a covenant of redemption. God gave these people to Jesus before the foundation of the world, that kind of thing.
The covenant of Grace is progressively revealed. Each Biblical covenant really stems from the Abrahamic one and builds on it.
Now as for Ezekiel, there are many things in chapters 40-48 which point to the whole section as not to be understood in a literal sense. First off, its a vision. The geography of the land, the nature of the river, the dimensions of the Temple, they are all way bigger than could possibly be without a dramatic land alteration. Of course we can postulate that will happen, but it could instead be a symbolic way of using something familiar to teach the lesson that God will be enlarging things and doing a wonderful work for his people that will encompass even the lost tribes which are tainted with Gentile blood.
Matthew Henry’s an Jameson Fausset Brown’s introductions to chapter 40 cover this well.
July 18th, 2008 at 9:33 pmGill’s intro to the Ezekiel temple chapter is good too.
July 18th, 2008 at 10:02 pmDon,
What version of the Spanish Bible do you use?
CT,
I think one reference showing the covenant of works would be easy for you. I’ll give you a trinitarian reference besides 1 John 5:7, and that is Revelation 1:4-5.
I don’t know how Galatians denies what I’m saying. Regarding the kingdom, saved people are the Israel of God, the spiritual seed of Abraham. That doesn’t destroy or obliterate physical, national Israel.
So you are a dispensationalist. Being a dispensationalist does not require a system uniform with all dispensationalists. It essentially does mean that you take the Bible literally.
Bob,
I don’t think dispensationalists say that God was wondering what would happen with each new test. Can you show a dispensationalist, one Bob, that says that God was wondering what man would do? If you can’t, then what is that Bob? I’ll wait for your one example.
I believe in a covenant with Adam. Genesis 3:15. There are plenty of covenants in Scripture. I’m just wondering why we have the three that are THE key to interpretation of Scripture. I’ll be waiting for that.
When does all the allegorizing and spiritualizing stop and who decides? We have actual dimensions in Ezekiel 40-48. You didn’t answer anything regarding that. This article will answer the amillennialists on the temple in Ezekiel, etc.
No, I’m not a dispensationalist. You’re playing with language, and this all is too serious.
July 18th, 2008 at 10:26 pm>I don’t think dispensationalists say that God was wondering what would happen with each new test. Can you show a dispensationalist, one Bob, that says that God was wondering what man would do? If you can’t, then what is that Bob? I’ll wait for your one example.
Plan B?
July 18th, 2008 at 10:33 pmCT,
I am serious about it. You didn’t answer the question about evangelism. I’m serious about that too. Are you boldly preaching the gospel every week? I’m not talking about writing comments to blog posts.
Whatever my involvement in evangelizing (and there are different ways to evangelize the faith) the context in which you speak of it is a bit inappropriate. The fact that you evangelize the Gospel in a serious way does not inoculate you from criticism of your doctrinal views or make those views on-the-mark.
July 18th, 2008 at 10:49 pmthe way dispensationalism is sometimes presented comes very close to “God wondering what would happen”. I know most dispensationalists are not open theists, however. There is much said about the purpose for each dispensation, and a lot about how they are proving that man will fail when ruled in various ways. That kind of talk for the most part is speculation and not helpful.
I didn’t mean to erect a strawman.
As for Ezekiel, it is prophecy in a book full of symbolism and visions. To take the unclear and make clearer statements of Scripture have to harmonize with it, is not wise.
Again, I don’t see how the Gentile Church being part of the commonwealth of Israel can be undone. I don’t see how Hebrews’ clear teachings that sacrifices, laws, ceremonies, and even the Sabbath, were shadows and types pointing to ultimate heavenly realities that we are currently experiencing in this better age. The kind of millennial rule that you seem to be espousing would be a backstep away from better to lesser.
As CT has been suggesting, there is a lot more Scripture to consider on all of this, and it isn’t as cut and dry, black and white, simple as you make it.
Saved people, many of them, have legitimate Biblical reasons to avoid dispensationalism. Even if they are wrong in their understanding of various passages, that doesn’t make them unsaved. And it doesn’t make them anti-Semites or black liberationist-leaning theologians. BTW, you are the one who is frontloading this discussion and insinuating CT = anti-Semitism and CT fits well with black liberationalism.
I won’t comment more on this post, most likely. My points have been made, and I’m being drawn into a prolonged debate that I don’t have time for.
July 18th, 2008 at 11:27 pm>I believe in a covenant with Adam. Genesis 3:15Open Link in New Window. There are plenty of covenants in Scripture. I’m just wondering why we have the three that are THE key to interpretation of Scripture. I’ll be waiting for that.
The two Adams. Jesus did what Adam failed to do. The large perspective question as to why God set up his Plan of Redemption the way he did has to do with self-will and God’s will. God could snap his fingers and by fiat make all men and women act from God’s will, but that is not what he wants, obviously. He wants created beings who love him in a real way. His plan sets up the tensions between self-will and God’s will that enables man to be drawn back up to God, by God’s grace, developing the image of God in a real way.
Part of this is accepting that the plan is to display God’s justice and mercy. When we don’t put God in the dock (judge God) we are being God centered rather than man-centered. The Covenant of Redemption sets up the mechanics, if you will, for man to be effected by God in a real way and turn internally - repent - and have real faith, in the conditions where all that means something.
We, in Adam, were created at a higher level than we are at now. In
Adam we fell. We have, by the grace of God, the potential to rise higher even than where we were in Adam originally created. Glorification. It requires an eschatological act of God, but that is the promise. The mechanics of all this is set up by the Covenant of Redemption made from eternity. It played out beginning in the Garden with the Covenant of Works where Adam, as God knew he would, fell. And it continues to play out in time in the Covenant of
Grace.
On Sinai a republication of the Covenant of Works was given to national Israel for - in the fulness of times - Jesus to fulfill. Works for Jesus, grace for us when we appropriate Jesus’ works by faith.
A practical aspect of knowing the Covenant of Redemption, other than seeing the whole of Scripture and being able to see the parts in relation to the whole, is to know that the foundation you stand on is a sure foundation, set from before the foundation of the world. When you stand on the Covenant of Redemption, the Pactum Salutis, in the midst of spiritual warfare, you know that is a law that can’t be destroyed or overturned by anybody or anything, Satan included.
It is also practical in that you can begin to see how repentance and faith, internal re-orientation from being man-centered and acting from self-will to being God centered and acting from God’s will (which is our natural will because we are made in the image of God), are aspects of the image of God, from resentment to gratitude, that are part of our internal change and God-given ability to act from above, from God’s will rather than rebellious self-will.
Understanding is powerful. Knowing the whole of Scripture, of God’s plan, enables one to then see the parts in relation to that whole, which is understanding. A Christian who has that understanding, given by the Holy Spirit, is not merely moving and thinking in a vaporous level of emotional devotion “Faith, faith, Jesus, Jesus” but knows God’s plan and where they stand and the sure foundation they stand upon.
Scattered notes, of necessity…
July 18th, 2008 at 11:46 pmWhen thinking about national Israel it’s helpful to see that there are two players in God’s plan that are unique:
1. Pre-fall Adam, and
2. National Israel
Neither correlate with fallen man. Adam had a role to play that we don’t play. National Israel had a role to play that we don’t play.
National Israel an actual type of the Messiah. Jesus’ life on earth mirrored National Israel’s history. National Israel existed to literally *be* the substance of the Word of God, and to shepherd it and bring it into existence, and ultimately, in the fulness of time, to bring the Messiah in the pure blood line from King David. Once this happened National Israel’s role was over. Despite themselves or any among them who resented this they no longer sacrifice, they no longer have a Levitical priesthood; their Temple was destroyed. Any among those who call themselves Israel today who aren’t tares or converts from Khazars or whatever, i.e. any real Jews that exist, they aren’t sacrificing animals and following the ceremonial laws and so on. Their role ended, successfully, when Jesus was born.
So you see Paul in Romans with all the difficult language he uses which is basically saying his people are no different than anyone else, the law is a curse for them just as it is for anyone else, and they need to have faith in Jesus for salvation just as anyone else, yet, at the same time, they played a unique role, and so let God judge them, and don’t get carried away when you see them in their current state, unregenerate, not recognizing the Saviour, etc. Yes, they are in the same position as everyone else, yet they also did play this special role in God’s plan.
Kind of like the same way we should look at Adam. Yeah, he screwed up, but it was part of God’s plan that he screw up. So, though he is in the same position as all of us regarding salvation, he also had a unique role to play in God’s plan, so don’t feel better than him and so on.
July 19th, 2008 at 12:09 amKent,
I’m using the Reina-Valera-Gomez in my devotions and in the pulpit.
July 19th, 2008 at 6:00 amSorry, I believe I made an either-or proposition between theology and missions. Ideally we should have a biblical balance between the two. CT, if you do not witness in public like Christ and Paul, you are living in disobedience to the Word of God in so many places that this blog doesn’t have the space for it. Those who received Christ will not be ashamed of Him (Rom. 10:12). Those who don’t have an active and obedient faith, those who don’t think that it is appropriate to preach, when the Bible commands us to preach, and God has chosen preaching to save them that believe; then you are not in a place to handle doctrine.
July 19th, 2008 at 6:07 amWow, I shot that off way too fast. It should say “those who think it is inappropriate to preach” and the verse is Rom. 10:11.
July 19th, 2008 at 6:10 amCT,
Here’s why I ask about the evangelism. You were questioning my theological credentials based upon whether I have interacted with certain books that you deem necessary for understanding Scripture. I’ve read a lot of reformed writing. Based on Scripture, however, we need the illumination of the Holy Spirit within the context of a church, since the church (local) is the pillar and ground of the truth. More than any other in the NT, preaching boldly manifested the filling of the Spirit. I asked you whether you were preaching boldly as part of your credentials. If you know all the doctrine, but you don’t practice it, first, you aren’t filled with the Spirit, second, you don’t have illumination, and, third, you don’t care about the truth that you do know. I didn’t say these were true about you. I just asked the question and then you went ahead and did seem offended with it, which is not appropriate for the godly. Then you went ahead and speculated as to why I asked, guessing that it was because I thought evangelism would justify a wrong doctrinal position. Anyone who reads this blog knows I don’t believe that. This is all tell-tale.
Regarding your doctrinal explanation. I agreed with most of what you wrote. I can’t say I disagree with anything, even though I would need to read it more carefully, except for comment #45. The covenants make an outline for you that explains the big picture of Scripture. I see that. However, I don’t have a Scriptural basis to say that these three are THE three points of the Bible. You don’t actually show in the text where God says that these are a covenant. I believe for instance in a Mosaic covenant, an Adamic covenant, an Abrahamic covenant, a Noahic covenant, a Davidic covenant, and a New Covenant. I believe those. Those are plainly in the Bible.
I don’t see from Scripture how that your three covenants necessitate an approach to Scripture that is allegorical. I don’t see how that they require you to nullify God’s promises to Israel. What I read through the whole Old Testament is that God will still save Israel and give her the land, and that this will follow her spiritual salvation, which has not yet occurred, but that we have a basis for believing still will happen. She still has the kingdom that God promised as do Gentiles who are believers, as they are promised the kingdom as well. What is clear to me from the NT is that the church has become Gods institution to do His work for most of the rest of the time except for a short period in which all Israel will be saved. It is laid out for cleanly in the gospels and Revelation, which is in tune with Daniel 9.
Bob,
I think you are saying that Ezekiel is unclear. I didn’t find that when I went through it. I’ve got notes on the whole book and it makes sense to me and it fits with the rest of Scripture. The only thing in the whole book that was difficult was the angelic vehicle that the Lord rides upon in chapter one and Ezekiel himself said that was difficult.
I don’t know how that the plan of God revealed in Scripture could be a step back. Jesus will be with us in the kingdom. We will worship Him in a way He has prescribed and He knows best. You didn’t answer the Lord’s Table and baptism, because those are both pictures even though the reality has come.
I don’t think anyone here said that someone was unsaved for being covenant theology. Could you point out when that was said? For the record, now I will say that I believe that it is possible that someone who is a covenant theologian is not saved. I think it is a case by case situation, just like it would be for a professing dispensationalist. I don’t think that allegorizing Scripture is a good basis for revealing salvation. Neither do I think these salvation testimonies, which say that having one point in time where someone repents and turns to God in faith is unnecessary, fit what I see in the Bible about salvation either, and I do see the reformed exclusively with these.
Regarding Don’s comment about liberation theology, you keep missing the mark, even though I corrected you once. He didn’t say that all amillennialists are liberation theologians. He said that liberation theologians are amillennialists. And I saw how that their hermeneutic and then attitude with the Jews would fit amillennialism. This is easy I believe. They are easily the fruit of this allegorizing and spiritualizing that they do, and their replacement theology either causes their anti-semitism or their anti-semitism causes their replacement theology. They also fit with the long line of anti-semitic replacement theologians—Augustine and Martin Luther being good examples. Did this affect the attitudes of Europe for centuries, climaxing with Hitler and Germany? I believe history shows that it did. And this all fits with Gentile conceit and arrogance, exactly how it reads in Romans 11:23-26.
So I’m not insinuating anything. I believe that history shows that amillennialism, replacement theology, anti-Semitism does all go together. Don brought in the black liberation theology and I agreed with him. I’m sorry if you don’t like how it feels, but it is your legacy. And I’m happy that I don’t have the same legacy, because separatists, non-church-state people didn’t persecute anyone for hat they believed. I am very happy about that. I’m also very happy about my love for the nation Israel. I’m happy about a national policy that is pro-Israel. You, on the other hand, made it clear on your blog, that Israel has no special right for that land. You said that you are ambivalent in essence about whether the Palestinians, the Arabs, have it or not. You would be the cat’s meow for the Moslems in the Middle East and their position on Israel. They would pray to Allah for more of you in the U.S. It reminds me of when John Stott was asked about the significance of what was happening in Israel, and he said, “No significance.” Yes, I am driven by what Scripture teaches.
Kent,
I’m not sure we are talking past one another – although it is evident that you are involved in a number of conversations from various points of view. So thanks for taking the time to respond to my comments.
You wrote, “[Jesus] rejected Israel’s false religion of the time.”
The evidence from the Gospels shows that while Jesus was critical o